[Arielle] So we are now officially recording Doctor Skanes, thank you so much again for joining us for this interview for the Black reproductive justice archive. I just wanted to start by asking if you could just introduce yourself to us. And by that, I mean just like your name, place of residence, your credentials, just to anything you wanna tell us about, all of the wonderful nuances of you.

[Heather Skanes] Yeah. So my name is Heather Skanes, and I am a board certified OB-GYN. I am in private practice in Birmingham, Alabama. And, I am the founder and owner of Oasis Women’s Health, as well as Oasis Family Birthing Center.

[Arielle] And to that end, you are so pedigreed, and you’ve done so much. I just because I just was looking it up, and I was, like, your degree in African, studies, right? Like, American studies, going back to medical school, like, all of these things that you’ve done. How did you get into this journey of becoming, you know, going into the medical profession, but also opening up the Oasis Women’s Health Center?

[Heather Skanes] Yeah. So I was pre-med when I went to undergrad, but I knew that I had a particular interest and black women in our health and reproductive health. So I always had the intention of being OB-GYN, but I did decide to major in African American Studies because I wanted you have a historical and cultural context for my work. I also chose it because, especially growing up in Alabama, there wasn’t a lot of black history taught. So for, like, most people that is on a collegiate level where you actually delve into the history and the culture of African Americans. And so, that was very fulfilling in undergrad, and then still, you know, did my pre-med all that is required and went on to medical school knowing that I wanted to be an OB-GYN specifically because I liked that, I liked that as OB-GYN, you get to do so much.

[Heather Skanes] You get to do preventative health. But you also need to do procedures and surgeries. You get to be there for one of the happiest days of people’s lives and they get birth to you know, the next generation, and you get to care for for women and bursting people throughout this span of their lives from teenager all the way until their to their upper, elderly years. And so I loved that about OB-GYN, but again, I have had a particular interest in women of color and being underserved. So I did decide come back to Alabama because there are so few black OB-GYN here, and of the ones here, even fewer of them actually, do birth work anymore. Many of them are GYN only. And so that’s kind of how I landed in this space. And then I, developed a birthing center because I wanted to create, a safe, evidence based culturally relevant, facility for birth, outside of the hospital system.

[Heather Skanes] As you know, Alabama has a very particularly, bad history when it comes to reproductive health and development of etcetera, the field of gynecology here, all the way to the beginning of the specialty, and that’s all rooted here in Alabama. And so many of those, misperceptions and many of those, those negative perceptions that people have still prevailed to today, and I wanted to create a space outside of that, where people could feel comfortable but also because, birth centers are evidence based approach for childbirth. And, you know, we need to improve our outcomes. Alabama is like, the third worst state to give birth in, in a country that is the worst amongst, the developed nations. And so I feel that the work is it was really important here. And, yeah, all my studies in African America Studies just brings it all full circle for me.

[Arielle] And I really appreciate that breakdown because I’m able to see how all of this flows into a particular arc in terms of your work and your commitment to this. And I guess I wanted to take the time to break down a little bit of the different parts. One in asking a little bit about your pre-med experience. Did you have? (cause you were also obviously majoring in African American studies, and you were learning this history.? But I wanted to ask when you were doing pre-med as well as later on your med school experience, did you feel as though there was care information, attention given to basically black women’s experiences in your studies?

[Heather Skanes] So that’s a good question. The thing about college, you know, undergrad you pick the courses that you take, so you kinda create your own experience as far as what you wanna learn about. But I do think, one of the ways they carved out a space for us at the time that I was at Washington, there was the Homer G. Phillips program. And so that was for minority students who were who were pre-med, and they spent time talking to us about, the history of segregation in Saint Louis, how the hospitals were segregated, and, Homer G. Phillips was a prominent African American, positioned there at that time.

[Heather Skanes] So they told us that kind of a history. I wouldn’t say specifically about African American women and their experience. Although there was a black, I think I wanna say it was like a black woman’s history course or something like that. So I wouldn’t say in that time. No. In medical school, we talk, and this is something that I think is trying to evolve now., But a lot of what I learned was about, you know, black women are starting to risk for this, that, the third, like, like, that’s how they talked about it. It wasn’t in this full context of all the things that have happened to black women and black birthing people and how that has shaped the the field of medicine and and how it continues to perpetuate. So it wasn’t that global kind of context, to those discussions.

[Heather Skanes] And I even remember when I was in medical school, they talked about J. Marion Sims and, like, how he’s the father of gynecology, da da da, and it was, like, I wanna say, like, a grand rounds, but it wasn’t, like, a really long thing or anything like that. But even in that time, and I was in medical school in twenty fifteen, people still weren’t having the conversation about all of the harms that were done. It was very good. So I was like, yeah, he did this on. It’s like, woman, but look at what we got from this. And, like, it was kind of that that narrative. So recently, I had the opportunity to go back to my undergrad as a speaker. And for the Department of African American Studies and talk specifically about the context in the history and how it had been whitewashed and how we should recontextualize the way that we discuss gynecology, and the mistrust of African Americans, specifically African American women have towards the fields. And it was a great conversation, a great learning opportunity for the students.

[Arielle] That’s so amazing. And frankly, I’m I’m learning probably still a little all too rare. So that’s wonderful that you had that opportunity to go back and have that conversation. As an extension of that, do you feel, I guess, what’s something that you feel could be implemented in medical training either on a national level, local level, I guess to produce more equitable medical care for black women and those who give birth.

[Heather Skanes] I think that it is critical that this becomes a part of the curriculum that, having the conversation of the discussion about the foundations of Gynecology. Like, when you know that information, I think it creates a totally different context for the way that you work. For the expectations that you have of your patients and for the expectations that the patients have of you, like knowing that information, I feel like is life changing. Especially for people who are not people of color, which is the majority of physicians. Right? So, well, the majority in the US, So if if the majority of those physicians had that information, I think they might approach black women and women to color differently. In the context that I know a lot of times people are like, well, I’m not responsible for what happened in the past but, and when you know that, I think you can understand why people feel the way they feel, and you can make sure also that you’re not repeating some of those same mistakes that people have made.

[Heather Skanes] And one of the things that I did in the lecture was I broke down not just the foundations, but how the foundation has we have seen the repercussions and the reproduction of similar patterns of unethical behavior every decade. Like, all the way up into 2020 Like, so when you see it and you call a thing a thing, then you realize it’s not me taking accountability for what somebody did in eighteen seventy. It’s me taking accountability for things that are being done in two thousand and twenty four, that I see that are wrong, that I need to speak about and I should feel one that I have the information now to speak about it, but I also have the words to use and say: this is This is where this behavior comes from, and this is why it is no longer acceptable.

[Arielle] Woo, preach! As a historian, I appreciate that narrative, right, that making folks understand that there are realities today that have are basically so interconnected with these historical dynamics that we talk about that this notion of responsibility gets murky very quickly, right, because the past? No. But what are we doing about what’s going on today? And to extend your wonderful point, you were talking about how part of what, you’ve noticed in Alabama in particular, but also in the US is a lack of, you know, melanated folks in this profession And so I wanted just to inquire about that a little bit more and ask this. Like, what role do you think the racial makeup of nurses, birth workers, physicians, Why does that matter for black women’s health outcomes?

[Heather Skanes] I think it matters for a lot of reasons. One, I think it’s important to acknowledge that, the lack of providers of color has been intentional it has been very intentional. It has been a systemic effort to keep people of color outside of these roles. So I think it’s very important to acknowledge that. And there’s documentation, especially in Alabama of that. And so I think knowing that is important. When you know that, then you would know why it’s important that we have these DEI programs that people are trying to take away. It’s because people have demonstrated a pattern of behavior that if it is left to the individuals who are not of color, then they will disproportionately choose people who look the same as they do. Whether intentional or unintentional. In many cases, in Alabama, it was intentional, like, they knew what they were doing when they eradicate midwifery. In Alabama, which was predominantly black women providing birth services. Right? So they knew that. That was a very intentional move. I think it’s important because people deserve to seek a representation of themselves in whatever field.

[Heather Skanes] I think it’s important because people of color are capable and qualified to do this work and want to do this work. And without unnecessary barriers, they would be doing this work. I think it’s important because sometimes people just need someone to speak the same language that they speak in order for the proper diagnosis and treatment to be given. And and to be done effectively. I think it will be the same thing, you know, African American vernacular is a real language. And it’s the same as, you know, someone who speaks Spanish. Sometimes you need somebody there who speaks Spanish. Like, you just do, and it’s no no shade to the person who doesn’t speak Spanish. I don’t speak Spanish fluently, so I, but I can’t help you if I don’t know what you’re saying. You know, sometimes you need that.

[Heather Skanes] And I think that given the history and given that the history is so recent, there is such a distrust it of medical professionals. But and I think that having rep people from their from each culture represented properly, then people are gonna feel more comfortable because they trust people from their own culture because you speak the same language, You understand my cultural values, but you also understand my cultural hesitations. You understand the history of things that were done to my mom, that were done to my grand mom, that were done great grandma and why they have generationally passed it on to me not to do what the doctor said.

[Arielle] Oh, I love that. I love that language too – cultural hesitation. I guess I’ve never heard it put that way, but I think that’s so well said. Because there is that. It’s it’s a it’s a… It’s a sort of non feeling that you can sense that people may not sort of pick up on, but it’s very much, you know, creating a particular dynamic, I think, in these sort of medical spaces. I wanted to, I guess to that end, Part of what we’re trying to do with this project is to, you know, forefront people like yourselves who are on the ground doing the work of addressing reproductive health and what we are largely calling a Black maternal health crisis, but I just wanted to explicitly ask from your experience on the ground as a physician, do you believe there’s a black maternal health crisis? Why or why not?

[Heather Skanes] I think that certainly, there’s a disproportionate, poor outcomes in women of color for, for sure. I think that what we’re seeing I mean, I definitely think the work like, choosing words is important. And I think naming it a Black maternal health crisis definitely brings attention and awareness about. But what I like to think of it is more of a Black maternal renaissance. Right? Like, people are are looking into practices, of medicine, And they are deciding that they no longer want to participate in the system as it is. They’re asking for changes that need to be made, changes that are evidence based, changes that are culturally appropriate, changes that do lead to better outcomes. And I think that that is important. It’s not just that we’re in a crisis. It’s that people want something else from us. People are asking, and we need to give the people what they want.

[Arielle] Oh, Doctor stands. I’m gonna have to, like, you know, credit you for all this, like, language that you’re giving us, a block eternal renaissance. That’s really powerful, just as a thought. And again, having been at that conference space in Alabama, that’s very much the energy, right, the sort of spirit it was giving, was that there was a renaissance, right? In activism and thinking, and so that’s really, really beautiful. To the sort of like narrative of crisis and the sort of like national what has become national news. I wanted to ask how did, like, the dog’s decision with the overturning of the right to abortion how did that or did it even affect the work that you do? And what did you notice in Alabama in particular?

[Heather Skanes] So, I definitely think it a I think it affects anybody who’s doing this work. I think, you know, in particular, I definitely saw an increase in patients coming for consultations regarding sterilization. Like, even before ever being pregnant, people are like, I know that I would never want to have a child. I’m thinking about just getting my tubes tied because I know that for myself. And I don’t want to, you know, that now that that option’s taken away from me.

[Arielle] Right.

[Heather Skanes] So we saw that, I saw, an increase in people who had pregnancy that they would not have otherwise carried a turn because they couldn’t afford to go someplace elsewhere. They were scared to ask somebody to get them out state, or they couldn’t come up with the money, or, you know, various things, especially, like, initially because our, attorney general was, you know, threatening, legal action on people who assisted people. So, you know, people become very fearful of even having those conversations. Which I think is harmful to our population, because I think that when you come to the doctor’s office, it’s not the job of the doctor to always tell you what to do. There’s times when the doctor can tell you what to do, like, it’s a very clear, like, you’re gonna die if this thing doesn’t happen. But most of the time, my job is just to give you the options and to educate you and help you come up with whatever decision is gonna be best for your life.

[Heather Skanes] And especially with gynecology, and when we’re doing reproductive counseling, it’s it’s not for me to tell you what to pick. It’s just for me to say you could do A, and here’s what would happen if you did A, and this is what would happen if you did B. And I think a lot of people or providers felt like they couldn’t necessarily be as open and honest with patients about it’s basically like, well, you just can’t have an abortion. You gotta, you know, you gotta continue with the pregnancy. And that’s not necessarily true. You could. You could go out of state. And here are some people who could help you out of state, but, like, what is the line, you know, now for my education? You know, before I could just say, here are the abortion clinics in Alabama. Here are the numbers to call, here’s the fund to call. If you need financial assistance, there you go.

[Heather Skanes] But then you have to think about now, well, can I provide them with that much information, or is that gonna be considered assistance that is worthy of prosecution? And I shouldn’t have to think about something like that because that is genuine medical advice. But then, of course, we also saw that this, went on as predicted to affect infertility patients as well. Right? I think the biggest difference there is that You know, black women, although we’re more likely to suffer from infertility, are less likely to receive treatment. And so the the people who were affected were mostly white women, and they came out in Grove. These were white women who had money, and they had that decision reverse very quickly so that they can restart their IVF cycles. And women of color don’t have the resources, the power, or the economic, you know, stronghold to to do something like that, in a lot of situations, but had they partnered with the people who were arguing for abortion rights, we would have made a huge difference, for our state.

[Arielle] Oh, yeah. And, it’s all of these little nuances, right, that I think are really important, and you’ve just done such a great job of drawing out. Because the line is so murky in these things. And so I wanted to ask So much of the work you were doing is really trying to think about being part of this renaissance. So I just wanted to ask, how do you see your work, how do you see particularly like Oasis women’s health, as intervening into this landscape? How do you see that organization filling in the gaps doing the work to make the landscape better?

[Heather Skanes] So, in a lot of ways, our goal is still, you know, to be a safe space, an evidence based space, regardless of what’s going on outside of these four walls. You know, of course, we take the confidentiality of our, patients very seriously, and I just want to continue to make it so that people no matter what’s going on, feel that they can talk to me. About the issues that we can come through a decision together. And I think that continuing to cultivate our own spaces, our own facilities, is gonna be critical, to this renaissance of this movement. I think it is. And not that someone should not do the work within these larger systems, obviously, should. It just takes so much more time. And a lot of these larger systems make feel that well, people can just go somewhere else. You know, if they want all of x, y, and z, they can just go somewhere else. And I think our job is to be that somewhere else to catch all these people that are following through follow through the cracks and to lift them back up and say, no. You deserve this or no. This is This is how this is gonna get done. We’re gonna help you figure out what you need. We’re gonna help you get to the right place.

[Arielle] That’s so great. And and fulfill such a need because I’m in Atlanta, and we don’t have a lot of something else. I mean, we do have some. I don’t wanna diminish the local work that’s being done, but that’s still in progress. So I think being the something else is really, really powerful. I wanted to also ask this before I guess I guess kinda switching gears. Part of what you’re bringing to the floor is how there’s so there’s a movement to give other options. To women who feel like the system has failed them in particular ways or is not meeting their needs. And so I find that there also is this sort of idea too that, physicians, doulas, midwives that they’re all sort of, like, kind of keeping with each other and that it’s a very contentious space. And so I wanted to sort of ask what how do you see all of the different sort of like manifestations of birthing care and birth work working together, in this renaissance. What’s what’s your what’s your vision? How would you like it to look?

[Heather Skanes] Yeah. So the goal for us is to have a really integrated model of care. So we have midwives. Some are certified nurse midwives. Some are certified professional midwives. And then we have birth assistance who are doulas. And things like that. So the goal is for everyone to work together collaboratively because they’re really we all have very different job descriptions. And there is no real reason for any of us to beef or have a back and forth. I think that the fact that we work together also helps the patients to understand that the relationship should be collaborative, and it shouldn’t be a contentious relationship at all. So my goal and, you know, my ultimate vision was to have this space where it was, like, you know, black, all black OB-GYNs and all black, you know, and Hispanic, midwives, and, and, and doulas all, and, you know, it’s easier said than done because we don’t have that many black neon lines. But, that was my ultimate vision. It was to have just, like, a space where all all of these providers are people of color that are reflective of our patient population.

[Heather Skanes] But I think that in general, we everyone you have to recognize that everyone has an expertise, right, and you utilize people for the expertise that they do have, rather than saying, well, I’m the OB-GYN, and I know everything. You know, I may not be the best person to Well, not even the best person. I cannot physically sit at your bedside for the whole time that you’re in labor. Right? It’s impossible. This is impossible. I have other patients. I have a clinic. I have, you know, that’s the doula’s job. Right? So why would I not utilize the doula And that was one of the great things about the one of the local hospitals that we had here. So I could say, like, hey. You know, miss such and such, who’s your doula? She really needs to, to move this baby down some. Let’s do some position work that we’re gonna be helping her get the baby down. What, you know, I have some positions that I would like for her to do, what positions do you have for her to do, and we can work together. And you can be doing that while I can go check on the next person because this person is fine. It’s medically stable, but needs someone here at her bedside to help her do a thing. And the doula can ask me, hey, while you stepped out, she brought up X, Y and Z that she was concerned about.

[Heather Skanes] She didn’t know what to say it, but she was concerned about this. Can you go over that with her? And that helps me to have a really good communication with the with the patient, right, because, you know, we all do that, right, when the doctor steps out and their steps out, like, what about I should’ve I should’ve I should’ve said I should’ve said the design, you know, and it’s not that people don’t wanna help you. It’s just that sometimes you thought of something when they laugh. You know, or you were afraid to ask, and that person is not afraid to ask. And so I think we all have a role, a role to play. And working together, then then they learn to trust me in the community, and they can recognize that, hey, telling you, you need a c section. You probably really do because I’ve been in a verse with her, you know, I’ve been in twenty verse with her. She’s she okay, all those people had vaginal deliveries. So something must, you know, be different here, and they will trust it more. You know? So I feel like our work our work is not combative. It’s definitely a collaborative effort, and that should be the goal of any provider if you’re doing medically reasonable things, you should be able to explain that to anyone.

[Arielle] I have a great picture of what things can be and hopefully that we’re working towards. And and I love emphasizing the sort of creativity, joy, yeah, the dexterity and flexibility that a lot of these organizations and people on the ground are having to put to use to solve, some of their the the issues that we see. And so I guess in light of that, because, you know, part of what we wanna do too is make space for joy in our account of, you know, people’s experiences. So I just wanted to ask you, like, in the work that you’ve done, what is a favorite memory or memories that you have that you hold dear?

[Heather Skanes] I mean, I feel like I said being there in people’s sacred moment when when they’re bringing new life into the world is very, that brings me a lot of joy, especially when we had our first birth in the birth center, that was extremely exciting. For us because we were like, okay, I think this is gonna work. You know, like, this, you know, we had what we needed. Oh, we made notes of what we could’ve done better or we needed differently. So being being able to open the birth center and see it functioning, seeing it grow and be, you know, operational. And now we’re, you know, applied for our national accreditation and all that kind of stuff. In becoming licensed, you know, the first licensed person in the state of Alabama’s history, it’s a huge feat and that brought me so much joy because you go through so much struggle, you know, as a black person, but also, as someone who is doing stuff outside of the system because people want you to work a certain type of way. And so when they finally are like, well, here’s your license, you know. Like, we had to do all this back and forth. I’m like, yes. This is this is what we’ve been waiting for. It this is gonna be worth it. So that has brought me a lot of joy.

[Arielle] That’s awesome. Congratulations, because I can’t even imagine. But I know one thing, and getting credentials for anything is a process. So I can’t even can’t even imagine what you all have had to to to endure. So that’s really wonderful that you’re, close to the finish line. And to that sort of I guess, larger point about joy. I want to ask, like, what does Black Motherhood mean to you? I mean, I think that that can become such a loaded concept politically, and it’s been used and mobilized in various ways. But when in the work that you do, it’s so present. And so what does that idea that mean to you? Black motherhood?

[Heather Skanes] Yeah. I think that’s a really good question, and I think it has so much you know, so much nuance to it. So I don’t have any children. I have a bunch of nieces and nephews, but I think about it because my my mom recently passed. And I think, you know, if you have your physical mother, who’s the through you. But the one thing that I am grateful for throughout my life, is all the spiritual mothers that I’ve had, in the church that I mean, we call people mother. So, like, we call people mother and sister and all of that. But, you know, when I got married, all of those spiritual mothers, you know, godmothers, all those people were there, but also when my mother passed, all of those people were there as spiritual mothers. And I think about, you know, my role. I’m sorry, holding this thing up. Don’t worry. No problem.

[Arielle] No problem, whatever. I paused. So it’s no…

[Heather Skanes] Okay. But, yeah, I think about my role as, a spiritual mother, like to my nieces, to my nephews, but also to the women that I advise, you know, people are very young when they start coming some of them are like twelve. And, you know, as a godmother, you were overambunctious god son, you know, like, that it can mean so many things, and, and I think most, I think of it as, like, your advisor, as your guide, you know, through the through life, And so I think, you know, motherhood is not just the physical birth, but it’s that person that is there to advise you and to guide you along. Throughout the journey of life because there’s so many ups and downs, so many unknowns. So I think it means a lot. I, you know, I also see you know, motherhood is people who give birth to movements, who give birth to, you know, what we’re talking about, which is a Renaissance, right? All of these people are important, even back to our ancestors, you know, they created the mothers of gynecology exhibit, like those women, worse are so important to the work that we do. And the and, you know, continuing to honor them in the honoring their legacy. And I hope that when people look back on the work that I’ve done, that they’ll see it in, a similar way that this is somebody who did something that shaped the future of Alabama.

[Arielle] Oh, that’s so, so beautiful. And do you have any words of wisdom Doctor Skanes for anybody who wants to get into the work that you do?

[Heather Skanes] I would say that this work, you have to do this work because you love people, and because you want to see genuine change. I would say on the day to day, it’s mostly a trickless job. No one, you know, mostly. Right? It’s a lot of, It’s a lot of work. It can be very stressful. It can be very draining emotionally, because there’s a lot of no’s before you get to a yes. And so I think that as long as you really genuinely love this word, and you love people, meaning you have to love the good and the bad of people, then this is the type of work for you. You can’t go into I don’t think you should go into medicine, but especially not this type of work, type of justice work. You can’t go into it for money. Can’t go into it for for fame or recognition. You have to do it because you genuinely love it because most of those things you’re just not gonna get. And you you’re gonna get hopefully the support of your community, but sometimes your community won’t necessarily understand what it is that you’re trying to do.

[Heather Skanes] And so you have to do it because you have a vision, and hopefully you would have a supportive, community, and people who can help you flush out your vision. Because sometimes your vision is so big. You have to break it up into smaller and smaller parts. And then I would just say you have to, a lot of times, encourage self because when you get those nose, every no feels like the end of the world. Sometimes, you know, you feel like, you know, when you’re in high school and something happens and you feel like it was the end of the world, you know, you broke up with somebody name, you don’t even remember now. And you’re like, oh my god. It feels like that sometimes.

[Arielle] That was so true.

[Heather Skanes] But, you know, once you get to that, yes, all of that becomes worth it. And you grow from every experience, every know that I’ve gotten on a grant, or something propelled me forward to do something else.

[Arielle] Oh, Doctor Skanes. I’m gonna personally just keep that. You’ve just dropped so much wisdom. But just even that little bit is encouraging to me just because I’m doing a PhD and I just am like, I needed to hear your point about the grant application. Yes. Because that’s just such a process. And so thank you so much. That was my last question. I guess my ultimate ultimate last question is really to say if you can think of anybody else who’d be willing to speak to us. You don’t have to tell me right now, but maybe in an email or just anybody who you think could, provide insight. We’d love to speak to them because our goal is to really as much as possible, be a horn, right, be the amplifier to what you all are doing because we want people to hear it out of people’s mouths, the black women who are doing the work Yep. Or part of the Renaissance, we wanna amplify that so people can utilize it.

[Arielle] So I just wanna say thank you because just being able to hear, you, but also being able to be reminded of the sacrifice and costs of the work, and the bravery that it takes to do it is incredibly personally edifying to me just as somebody who is getting to speak to you in this moment. As I’m sure it will be for other people who access what you’re sharing. So thank you so much for taking the time. We’ll, I probably will be in touch probably in the coming months because we’re launching. We’re in the very beginning phases of, like, putting out these oral interviews into a public interface. So as we sort of enter into different steps, I’ll be sharing, like, some updates. So you don’t know where we are in the process. Yeah.

[Heather Skanes] Okay. So I’m very excited for this. Thank you for the opportunity in reaching out to me, because I am very excited to see what your final product looks like. Absolutely. I am too. Keeping you so important you know, you know.

[Arielle] Yep. It is because as somebody who’s going through these archives, sometimes I’m like, what? This is when I need I wanna know what she’s thinking.

[Heather Skanes] Exactly.

[Arielle] Where are we in the archive, and she’s not there.

[Heather Skanes] And she’s not there.

[Arielle] And sometimes they are there and people just ignore them.

[Heather Skanes] Well, that is so.

[Arielle] Yes. Yeah.

[Heather Skanes] That is very important. So I thank you for reaching out to me, and I will think about because I’m not you talked to Doctor Robinson already.

[Arielle] I have not. No.

[Heather Skanes] Okay. So I’ll send you her her email.

[Arielle] That would be great. Thank you so much again. Enjoy your afternoon. And thank you just again for just this interview, but your overall graciousness taking the time. I’m so appreciative of you.

[Heather Skanes] Thank you. And I’m sorry I hung up so many times.

[Arielle] Oh, no problem whatsoever. Don’t worry. Take care.

[Heather Skanes] Bye bye.

[Arielle] Bye bye.