[Arielle Rochelin] So we are now recording. Thank you so much for joining us for this interview. It is our honor to be able to speak with you again, but more or fully. And so, Porsche, I thought if we could begin by just having you introduce yourself on your own terms. So could you tell just tell us a little bit like, you know, name, place of residence, and just your credentials generally speaking for for viewers?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Sure. So my name is Porsche Holland-Otunba. I am Philadelphia, Pennsylvania born and raised, and am now, once again, a resident of Pennsylvania. And so, glad to be in my place of birth and contribute to reproductive and maternal perinatal things here. I am a wife, and a girl mom of two, little ones, that work me a little bit, and it was, through the mothering journey that I responded to the call around this work. So I am and experience Birth and Postpartum Doula, DLC, that certified Lactation Counselor, certified Childbirth Educator, evidence based Birth Instructor, and I hold the certification for Perinatal Mental Health with PSI that’s Postpartum Support International. And so what in my work now and really what I feel called to do is to impact all things Black maternal health, And my firm Reclaim Black Motherhood was formed three years ago to do just that through consulting, coaching of birth workers, and maternal health professionals, research, program development as well.

[Arielle Rochelin] Porsche, I was just like, This is when you know somebody is, like, on their game and just is so committed to the work. And actually, you sort of, like, anticipated my second question a little bit, which is you wear so many hats, but I was struck by how on your your website, but also, like, just information about you generally that you came to this work as a result of what you call a traumatic birth experience as well as some difficulty breastfeeding And so I wondered if you could just speak to that, but also really, I guess what I’m asking is, like, what was your journey to coming into this work? What led you to, you know, ten ten toes down and say, this is what I’m gonna do in all of its various capacity.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Yeah. Sure. So, 2017 I found myself, pregnant and, unplanned pregnancy. And, it was through that journey just a lot of ignorance, didn’t really know what I feel like most Black birthers should know now today. And so through that pregnancy healthy, fairly good. No major concerns or issues, but didn’t understand the ebbs and flows of labor, normal physiological birth, vaginal birth, cesarean birth. I didn’t know those things, really. And so, I considered my first birthing experience traumatic and induction that I now know that wasn’t necessary in the way that it went about so making labor come on when my body was not ready at all. So just a lot of force on the body itself and on the baby that we don’t often talk about. And so, through that induction experience when there was no real medical concern at at all, but more so just I feel like a convenience and to be on the preventative side from the hospital standpoint. And, I, again, I frame that experience as one that was trauma and that I am now a birth trauma survivor because of the ebbs and flows, the things that went on that I now know is the cascade of interventions or the waterfall effect in that one medicine, you now need something else and you need this to treat this. And because you did this, now you need that, and typically, put Pitocin is one of the culprits, just a artificial way of making labor speed up and go forward.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so because of that, my baby wasn’t responding well, and it was harsher on the body. And so because of continued dips and in her heart rate, there was a concern and then kind of that typical, quote, unquote, emergency scenario where folks are running in. Everyone’s flustered. You’re seeing a million people in your room, and now you’re whisked off to the OR. I did get somewhat of an apology, my doula, and, my mother was there at at the time and so it was, like, this was not expected. I the only kind of surgical thing I’ve had to go on was, like, tonsils and adenoids removed as a child, which I don’t remember. And then my wisdom teeth pulled, which I was knocked out. Thank god, don’t remember, except for the aftermath. Fairly healthy. Never had any issues. No diagnosis. So to have a healthy situation, and, again, this wasn’t because of a medical emergency, but because of an intervention that I’m now in this place, being in this cold or lights everywhere, I close my eyes because I don’t know these people. They don’t know me. I’m completely exposed and naked before these people. And I’m hearing people talking about the game or sports or what they’re eating or whatever. And it was just no regard. Nobody tapped me on my shoulder, said was I okay? Asked about me. And I just recall, you know, eyes closed but balling, you know, if anyone has ever been in that situation where you could be balling out crying, but your eyes do not have to be open.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so just having this outer body experience of being, like, am I seeing, am I heard? My baby was fine. I was fine, but really feeling like the unnecessary surgical birth took place that didn’t need to, a huge payday for someone else, a source of trauma for me. And also for my mother to have to witness that, and… and be very concerned about us, just because she didn’t know anything about cesarean birth and didn’t birth either of her children in that way.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so after that, it is kinda common because of the drugs because of I actually labored for a day plus, and so you’re out of it, that lactation could be difficult. Nurses sometimes are cross trained or not in lactation, but some of them love to grab your breast and grab your baby’s head. And now as a lactation professional. I know that both of those things are W-R-O-N-G, all caps. You do not have to touch baby or breast in order to help. Was the support and initiation of lactation, and I’ve supported dozens of people, and haven’t had to touch their body. And so That can cause confusion. So that’s what was happening as I’m in pain and frustrated, but I didn’t know that at the time. So it didn’t work. Unfortunately, hand expression wasn’t introduced to me. My mom couldn’t remember. It had been thirty plus years. She just knew she didn’t have an issue breastfeeding me.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so I moved into exclusive pumping. I actually googled it and found out about it while recovering, sit then a recliner, and found an exclusive pumping community. So exclusive pumping, is a website, private Facebook group, a community Instagram. Like, there’s a woman that’s behind this, and people are pumping to feed multiples, to feed one child, They’re doing it six to ten or twelve times per day, and it’s a whole labor of love. And so that ended up being my scenario times two, as I had a cesarean with my second baby as well. So it was really that first birth, October twentieth twenty seventeen, which spurred me to be, like, something aint right, something was going on, not that I felt like I had all of these racially, heavily disturbing moments, but just I really did look around and wasn’t nobody Black. And so that was already a issue, but definitely reading stories later and getting an understanding later. I was, oh, this is some of the uncomfortability I felt. These were some of the areas of implicit bias that weren’t as strong to maybe say that I have a case, but I saw it. And so it was from that with my baby on my hip that I started making cold calls, reaching out to orgs, and, before she was one, I was training in lactation as a doula and starting to do this work. Yeah.

[Arielle Rochelin] And so the timeline of this is you getting into this pretty much fairly quickly in the aftermath of giving birth. Correct?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Yeah. Yes. And still in therapy for my own stuff and physically healing because it really does take a year plus who heal in every single way from birth.

[Arielle Rochelin] Yeah. I… I really appreciate the breakdown and just you narrating it in the way that you did because I find it so powerful that throughout all of these instances, you’re picking up on the fact that you’re, in a lot of ways, a tertiary figure during your own birth, during your own birthing experience. And so I just wanna ask, I guess, more generally, given your experience, but also now as a as a mom given birth. But also your experience as a birth worker, a dual lactation specialist, somebody, again, who’s in the trenches doing this work. How would you describe the landscape of Black maternal health in Philadelphia more generally? Do you feel like your experience is something that comes up a lot? What are the stories that you’ve you kinda heard in doing this work?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Yeah. So I’m definitely not alone in my experience, in terms of healthy, unnecessary, but probably not as educated. Maybe didn’t have a doula or education soon enough, that really could help to equip you to say, let me ask this question. Let me say no. I signed this paperwork, so maybe I feel like I need to do it. Her grandmom and them said, if they got on a white coat or if they have on a police badge, it is yes, ma’am. Yes, sir. And that is it. And so that is definitely a common thing that I have seen while supporting. First, helping people to work through that advocacy piece. You can ask a question. You can say something. You can refuse this. But let’s pray because if you say that, they need to leave your room and and leave you be to be able to have time to think without a nurse or a OB standing in your face. And so some of those things that that really make a difference to be able to question what’s going on.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so unnecessary and cesareans are happening unnecessary medication, overlooking people’s pain thresholds, all of those things are happening. A new report recently came out. And so I I don’t have some of the the data in in my head right now from from a report around our maternal mortality review committee. We have statewide and, and citywide, but from the the last numbers that I have known of, it’s, you know, definitely disgusting for Philly being such a large place, a place of many immigrants a melting pot is what I learned growing up and to have so many of the nations first. The nation’s first hospital, the nation’s this. Okay. We’re looking piss poor for a lot of things. We’re also, like, people know us for… for Kensington, right, for the the drug community and are coming here to get their fix, honey. They come in to Philly heavy. And so there’s a lot going on here that and great things that we can pride ourselves on, but there’s also some pieces that are, like, this is shameful. We should be doing much better. We should be fighting, more. We have lost Some hospitals over the years, we have lost, safe birthing spaces, like where I was born in ’86, We are fighting to get a birth center proper in the city. Why is that still a fight in 2024 with all of this education and technology and we brag on our teaching hospitals and on all these kind of things, and we’re overcrowded and busting at the seams, but we’re fighting for some basic things, in the midst of obstetric deserts for some people and transportation issues, and all of those kinds of things.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so we’re seeing near misses, deaths, and folks just being overlooked because there’s not enough time for the few providers that are available to do the work that they need to do. And so that plays a role in addition to, of course, racism and implicit bias, which is alive and well in every city. I wouldn’t… city and state across the country. I wouldn’t care which one you mentioned. It’s it’s alive and well. And so for for us and Philly, just seeing what’s on the ground working in some of these places engaging with folks on these maternal… maternal mortality review committees just really seeing that there is a deficit. And that there needs to be an overhaul of what things look like systemically, but also additional supplemental things outside of the MIC, the Medical Industrial Complex, to ensure that Black workers have what they need, and have the supports and resources that are necessary to navigate pregnancy and birth. So we’re not in the best place We are fighting for a lot of things like some of our neighboring, cities and states, and so there’s definitely room for improvement all across the board.

[Arielle Rochelin] I… You brought up the Medical Industrial Complex. And so I just would love your thoughts about how you see that operating in sort of your local space and nationally as well. But then I guess additionally how you see yourself and all of the work that you do, through birth work, through being a postpartum doula, a lactation specialist, and all of the various other things, sort of stepping into that gap. So I guess ultimately to simplify what I’m asking is like, what how do you see the Medical Industrial Complex? And how is the sort of work that you’re doing, stepping in to sort of rectify, the issues or the problems that that complex has created.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Yeah. So the first thing that came to my mind is, like, a good thought, a good idea. Let’s meet a need, but you know, holes because… a system. A system is gonna have flaws in holes, thanks to those that have initiated it. Thanks to those that maintain it or do a piss poor job of doing so. And so there are multiple things. There’s growing demand, it needs, there’s feeding in of money, right, and so who’s profiting, but also whose coins need to be included, like insurance companies and pharmaceuticals, for instance, that that play a role.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And then there’s the people. And so though we’re moving in a great way in terms of technology, everything is not robots. And so we still need people to say hello when people come in the door to schedule appointments, even if you do have an online scheduler, some folks are not quite there yet. You still gotta call in. We still need humans to perform some surgeries to engage with folks to do consultations, to do medical building and coding. Like, there’s the human side of things where money plays a role again how people are being compensated or not being compensated, overworked, treated, competition for promotion and things, fear, particularly for medical providers, fear and overwhelm and overwork, malpractice. Like, there’s just a lot of things that that play a role into the complexities of, like, what is going on here and also causes me to wonder, like, how is it being managed and what else needs to be happening to ensure that community voices are at the forefront?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] But it is big business. And so at the end of the day, there’s a business behind it and money is a driver. And so with that in mind, somebody’s going to suffer, whether it’s an employee, whether it’s a provider, whether it’s a patient, that’s just going to be the the reality and the messiness of such a system. And so for me having to interface with the system while particularly doing birth work and in hospital spaces. So the porting client, I was able to see some of those dynamics from something as simple as an exchange with a nurse and a resident who are going back and forth about something that should be done, saying things behind each other’s back or either straight up having disagreements while people are naked, trying to breathe, do whatever they need to do.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And then to think that doulas are demonized, if we say anything or do anything, is just kinda like, wow. So what is my position? What do I say? What do I do? Because I need my client to breathe. I need them to push. But I also don’t need to turn this mother out because then they will call security and put me out, but this is already a hostile environment. Because these are humans, whatever they’re bringing in from their day, whatever type of beef they have, because of this and that, it’s just a whole lot of layers.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And then whatever pressures are coming down from the system. Some of these folks are not getting paid well. Some of these folks are not getting treated well. They’re working super long. You’re having traveling nurses coming in because there’s not enough people. Like, it’s just a nasty dynamic. And so seeing that and saying because you all don’t have the capacity to care well for my clients the way that home birth midwifery is set up and that, traditional birth support and dual care is set up I can’t be so mad at y’all. This is a system. This is what it is. You guys are showing us in every facet that you can’t take care of us well. Right? And you don’t have the capacity. That’s cool. So where is my position knowing that I’m a birth trauma survivor and that I could also be activated by constantly being in these spaces. And I choose to to to use “activate it” instead of triggered. I was challenged with that. Some years ago in a training, and so I appreciate that. So I just wanted to share that.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] But I now find myself doing more systems work. And so I workshop, train, tell off the people that, you know, live in the mic. I point them to the light I introduce other ways to them. I impact through my firm research, and which impacts things like programs that are gonna roll out, different services that are gonna happen nationally. And so I have had the privilege of impacting work with, like, the Black Coalition for Safe Motherhood, Amchip, and doing so through grant funding from very large organizations that support reproductive and maternal health efforts nationwide and just being like, wow. This is where I wanna see some of the the change in the things happening, the one to many, but also in just a little bit of a safer space where I’m not literally in the places where the lights are bright, the bells are dinging, and there’s so much going on, and I’m going back to a very real place of just six years ago. When this kinda came to me.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so, me now thinking about interfacing with the, with the MIC is is around, demands whatever kind of repair or calling out can happen while at the same time supporting traditional… traditional practices, and indigenous practices that are actually caring better for our people. Knowing that there is a place for medical interventions, there is a place for the MIC, but if you all cannot do what needs to be done for us in general in terms of reproductive and maternal health. We have to have some other options. And so while fighting and pushing for other options, it’s advocating, calling out, showing up in these meetings demanding that I’m hired as the researcher consultant facilitator to ensure that Black voices are truly centered at whatever folks plans are that they’re cooking up because that’s just not gonna work for me. You… you… you ain’t finna launch nothing, do nothing, roll out nothing, and you haven’t centered us. That’s that’s not about to happen for me. And so I do that in a large scale locally, but have been sought out, by organizations nationally, and the two that I mentioned earlier are are definitely examples of those.

[Arielle Rochelin] That’s and listen, I’m in Atlanta, so I’m like, Porsche. Yes, go national. Okay. Can we can we get you over here too? But you’re right…

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Listen it’s got his own issues, child. Oh.

[Arielle Rochelin] Listen.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] It’s on the shore.

[Arielle Rochelin] Georgia. Layers upon layers. But as you beautifully said, it’s a whole layered ecosystem. And I think it’s absolutely brilliant that really you’re tackling it from so many different ends. Since, we actually just brought up a little bit of the national level. I kinda wanna shift gears into there. And sort of address a couple questions at the national level. Number one, I know Philly has its own sort of protections around the right to abortion. But I wanted to ask, have you found in your work…? What was the response or was there a response, when the Dodd decision was handed down? And if so, I guess what has been the response? What have you noticed? When that…

[Arielle Rochelin] Particularly locally?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Mhmm. Particularly locally?

[Arielle Rochelin] Yeah.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Yeah. Definitely, definitely arising up. Pennsylvania is interest thing because a lot of people are familiar with Philly. They might know a little bit about Pittsburgh or Harrisburg. But there are some parts of Pennsylvania that are are just not popping and are just not even safe for for melanin bodies and folks. And so, We have been, you know, privileged to see a lot of organizations and a lot of movement building happening. I have to shout out new voices for reproductive justice, that has roots in Ohio and, and in Pennsylvania, and has been doing work, to really amplify the need to, for folks to exercise their voice right, and whatever they’re choosing around their reproductive health and really centering reproductive justice as well. Like, what does this mean? What does this look like for us? So, of course, folks were on edge, you know, trying to see what was what, what, what was popping, what was happening, and in up in arms about what this was going to look like for all gender identifying folks what this was going to look like for those that choose and choose not to parent.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so it’s definitely, our rights around our bodies and… and, family planning and abortion and all of those things are definitely continued conversations, and definitely rise up as concerns. And so birth work, there’s definitely, I would say, in some intersectionality in terms of birth work because for those that specifically are full spectrum, we were, like, facilitating conversations, trying to help people figure out alternatives, but also being a helping to and support to neighbors that we’re feeling like, is there gonna be an option right, or what is our healthy option going to be?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so, we’ve seen politically and locally folks with stances being really strong. And if… and, you know, also offering support to say, here’s a org, here’s a place, here’s an option. Like, this is what we’re choosing to do here. And so it’s constantly a conversation for us. It impacts who folks are voting for, it impacts what organizations that are being funded for things. And also ensuring that this the voices of melanin folks are at the center too because there is a difference that I have seen when folks are screaming and yelling and and don’t look like us at all. And so what are you screaming and yelling for where again are the melanin bodies, and I think that that just also points so beautifully back to RJ and why it had to be these Black women saying, no, y’all really wasn’t for us. Y’all really wasn’t including us in this, but we’re about to uphold this.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so with the now. And we just had our primaries yesterday. And even now, Yeah. And even now as, you know, we’re looking politically in this year, it’s it’s top conversation, and everyone is saying straight up, this person is here, this person is there, like, which y’all gonna do? And it’s with every topic. It’s education. It’s this. It’s that. We’re just if Philly were bold faced. And so it’s like, who is doing what? Put it on blast, say it, and you guys need to vote accordingly. Like, what do you want? And so that’s one thing that I do appreciate about my city, and that we do press on the doors of Harrisburg, our state capital to be like, this is where we are. That’s what we’re saying, even so much so that now, thanks to some amazing folks. We have, a Black maternal health caucus that is alive and well in our state, that is also prioritizing needs, thanks to two state reps, across the commonwealth that are pushing that. And that because boots on the ground organizing yelling, fussing, screaming, like, somebody had to listen. And some of these items were already on the priorities list of some of these individuals, but needed to come together and get together on it. And so that is what we’re seeing is the concern. There’s multiple orders. There’s multiple grassroots. There’s multiple voices. But we’re doing our best to, like, band together and call out what is not gonna serve us well. And so that’s definitely going to inform the political process and how things continue to grow and shape, particularly in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

[Arielle Rochelin] And that’s really fascinating. I do feel like Pennsylvania. It is often not always, but can be at the forefront, really, sometimes. I’ve really, like, creating these networks that really name the issue. Right? Because when you talked about you have a Black maternal health caucus, That unto itself is extraordinary to me, right, to to name it that and to have it have a space, in the political environment. I wanted to ask you this, which is … to contextualize. There has been an interesting way that the sort of movement, and, Porsche, you let me know if I need to pause for a little bit too, because I wanna give time to…

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Yep. You’re good. You’re good.

[Arielle Rochelin] Okay. Perfect. But it’s been it’s been interesting, and we had a couple participants note this. The sent to which the national conversation around abortion, though it’s very much related and connected to the Black maternal mortality crisis that in some ways to to what extent is that conversation, right, taking up space and maybe sometimes not… sort of serving as a distraction and not letting Black people be centered in the conversation in a way that’s important. And so I wanted to ask what, I guess, your thoughts are on that. And then, I guess, very simply from your perspective, are we in a Black maternal health crisis?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Yeah. So it’s interesting because folks will yell and scream, particularly male identifying for… will yell and scream about women’s bodies and have not the slightest clue, when we in this country are facing a lot of issues. I was just… I think it was… I think it was Amanda Seals was listening to yesterday, maybe pointing out, oh, I forget where it was, just some ridiculous homeless issues and just criminalization of folks that were homeless, and there was nowhere for people to go. And so we think about schools busting out at the seams, and there’s literally one teacher for thirty something kids. We’re thinking about limited resources. We’re thinking about the housing crisis, which is in every major urban city across the country. And so starting back from, like, those things and the issues of our seniors and all of that. But then if we bring it forward to even enough pediatricians, pedriatic care, like, all these kinds of things. Y’all ain’t doing what y’all need to do to take care of the people that’s walking around here today. That’s that’s just number one. We can’t take care of those that are actually walking around Earthside today. So that’s where I’m gonna begin.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And then if we even just take a further look, at like services related to children are foster and adopt… foster care system and and adoption services. Like, that’s that’s just another pause. And so we’re not doing a great job at preparing people for parenthood in any way shape or form. And so, to jump to criminalizing abortion without considering all of the other aspects that society fails people in. We’re literally still floating around call to actions around somebody should have a lactation break. Around flight attendants and flight workers don’t have no way to to to pump their milk. And that hit me the other day when I got that. I was like, wait a minute. We gotta Yeah. We gotta fight. We gotta fight against that. Okay. That’s the demographic we have thought about the dog-gone flight attendant got the feed day baby too. Okay? I had to go back to work. We’re still having to fight about childcare. I got people running to DC often, you know, advocating for better childcare practices. My child needs child care right now. Okay?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] So we have some issues because our society wants people take their behinds to work at all costs as the prices of things continue to rise. And so, yes, Porsche Why are you saying all this? Because it’s intersectional. It it all plays a role. So you telling me what I should and should not do around my pregnancy today, I could write you a dissertation on how you’re going to fail me America with my child, that is so extensive that you may wanna rethink ever talking to me about my body again, because that’s what I will do. Okay? And you could say k to twelve, but it’s it’s from straight out the womb because the postpartum care and services and supports and how fast you want me to go back to work and people being set home with incisions that are busting wide open. They can’t even heal. But you you want to talk to me about this.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so there’s we’re seeing a rising fear and concern where Black folks don’t wanna have babies folks are choosing to parent later. Folks are choosing to parent single by choice. Folks wanna get settled financially because this society is ridiculous. And so can you blame the thirty year old person? Thirty five, thirty six, that just found somebody that they actually trust to partner with in light is finally feeling better about their finances is starting to pay off their student loans because of the lie that was told to them that they actually have to go get all these degrees, but didn’t get any funding for it. So they’re struggling with that, and now they may choose to. At that point. But there’s the fear and the concern because of a real maternal health crisis that we’re in.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And then you have someone else on the other side that’s like, no. And so maybe I was, you know, taking my pill, or maybe this IUD failed me. I know IUD babies walking around. They’re alive. Okay? So the IUD failed you, and they don’t want this pregnancy. That’s just it is. It is what it is. And so my whole issue is how dare people continue to criminalize someone’s choice around their body, their legacy, their life, their heritage, their relationship, when you ain’t doing nannary thing to contribute to their family, their life, their health, their legacy, their whatever.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] I think about, people that get criminalized when it has to be because of a medical situation. Right? You didn’t have to be there with them when they found out this defect that was going to slice their child’s life in half or whatever someone’s choice or situation was. Whether they had a good time, whether, it was abuse, whatever it is. Who asked you? Like, that’s… that’s my thing. And as being someone that has been there and has and has had… I’m so glad that where I reside, I have would be supported to make whatever decision I needed to make. I’m so glad because my life is my life. My body is my body, it is not yours. And then in terms of the crisis, it’s very alive and active well. Right? We have some data around Black birthers that make us Black folks wanna fight even more. But it’s it’s starting all across the board. Everyone’s getting unnecessary inductions and cesareans. White women crying too. Everybody’s having traumaful experiences. There’s no cure or remedy, for preeclampsia, and so many birthers are impacted by that.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so the maternal health crisis is alive and well because of data, because numbers, and because of story. So what you want? You want to qualitative, you want to qualitative. You can get it in these streets and we look ridiculous compared to other countries. And so this is just one of the many ways that, America cannot boast in her foolishness because she’s looking like a fool more than she’s looking like a place of opportunity and peace. And so that’s my two cents. It’s and… and that’s just what it is. Like, don’t don’t come to me on that. And and particularly in the spirit of full spectrum work is to be a support and an encouragement period. What is it that this individual needs? Whether your birth doula, postpartum doula, we have death doulas, you know, that are helping with transition. You center that person. This ain’t your life. This ain’t your story. Mind your business. Mind your womb. Some of you don’t even have one, and you up in somebody else’s. Just be quiet. Like, that’s that’s always gonna be my whole thing and care for and take care of those that are walking around. You ain’t doing nothing. To help those that are walking around. These politicians ain’t screaming what we’re gonna do to make sure everyone has equitable housing. All of their commercials are leading with abortion. Why? What does that have to do with anything when people have nowhere to live when these college degrees are proving to pay you just as much as someone that decided to put a reel up on Instagram and get paid.

[Arielle Rochelin] Here it is.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] So what are we talking about? What like, just what are we talking about? People should have no time to talk about abortion because there’s so many other issues. Pick your tools.

[Arielle Rochelin] I just wanna take that clip and just be like, Well, she’s the the the the entirety of this because that was just like a historical delve into like all of the numerous sociological factors and environmental factors and political factors and economic factors that are deeply related to this issue. So thank you for all of that nuance. Last time we were talking too, I remember you said that people just need quiet. Give me money and give me quiet. Like, give me give me money and be quiet.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Be quiet.

[Arielle Rochelin] Yes. I love that.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Can I ask you nothing?

[Arielle Rochelin] Right. That that the being quiet actually is such a powerful statement. It really is. It really is. I was just like, I need to have that as a sort of poster. Not just for myself because there are moments where, like, personal stillness is important, but as a political mantra of, like, y’all need to just to just stay quiet in this space. I love that so much.

[Arielle Rochelin] And so I wanted to ask too, Because we, as part of the archive in recording this, we also wanna make space for all of the like again. The the lows, but also the wonderful highs that are part of all of this experience, that has to do with, you know, the Black maternal experience. And so I just wanted to ask you because you put on your website that, like, part of your goal is to reclaim Black motherhood. What does Black motherhood mean to you?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] So, Black… Black motherhood to me is like, it really boils down to for me and my perspective, a journey of self discovery and investment. And so as being one that identifies as a Black mother, I am learning myself and how I fit into that role because that’s just one aspect one part of me. And then on the investment side, what am I giving, depositing, exposing, ensuring, leaving behind for the person that I had a hand in creating or persons. And so for me, I have two, and probably all it’s gonna be. Even though I am a god mom and a bonus mom, to others. And so what I really wanted RBM (Reclaim Black Motherhood) to do for others is to cause them to do that same thing. And so if for you, it’s finding your voice and birth to say, I don’t care what nobody says. I’m at least gonna give holistic vegan pregnancy a go. Like, I don’t care what y’all say. I can have a healthy baby be a vegan, or I am going to, by all means, necessary, equip myself with all the tools possible, to be my child’s primary educator and not send them to, one of these prison preparation places. Okay? That’s fine. That’s your prerogative.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so for us reclaiming moving to a space of saying this is mine. This is what I’m going to do on my terms because I defined it. And so that may mean going back. Some to talk to some elders to say, well, dang, didn’t y’all do this and do this and make this and make that? Yeah. We cooked our own food. Yes. We had a guard in And, yes, I gave birth at home. Like, what what other option was there in this place, Georgia, or in this place, whatever, and to say, let me go back and ask my elders and talk to them and see how it was, and maybe I should even give birth in the place where my great grandmother was born. Because we still own that property. Right? And so what does that look like for you? The indigenous, the spiritual, the ancestral, things that you want to now hold on to that could be the postpartum care that we used to get. But now, because everybody going to go back to work and grandmoms, and great grandmoms unfortunately are still working too. So they can’t come and help with the new baby, but you’re putting that in place. By maybe hiring a postpartum dueling now because you wanna ensure you have that care and support all the way down to what you’re deciding from everything, from whether you go pierce their ears, what vaccines you give in. Like, just the whole thing. This is your… this is your baby. It was your body. It’s now your baby. People can make suggestions. There could be recommendations. But people literally choose not to have birth certificates. They literally choose not to complete marriage certificate. They’re… they’re choosing not to comply to the things of the government and tracking in different ways. And that’s your prerogative. Like, So what does reclamation look like for you and who do you need to involve in your journey for that?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so that’s what RBM is all about, and it started with me being able to say be gracious with yourself, though. You didn’t wanna do a pacifier, and your kids were never gonna have screen time. Both of them have pacifiers. And the fresh two year old sure know how say tablet and you better put on her Pepper Pig, or she gonna be screaming. And I don’t have time for the screaming from a two year old that don’t have all her words. So she’s getting Pepper Pig. I just don’t… like this too short for the foolishness. And to say that’s fine, because that’s my season, that’s my today, and that’s what I’m choosing to do. And you should because it’s your child.

[Arielle Rochelin] Oh, that resonated. I have a little nephew. I’m in his room right now. He’s in he’s he’s had Peppa Pig seasons, Bluey seasons. Listen. That tablet on some days, I look at my society, but you don’t got it in today, bust out that tablet. Like, that’s just… that’s just what it is.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] We had to go outside. Right? And in some cases, people can still go out side, your neighborhood might be safe. I’m not in the best place, unfortunately, can’t open up the door. Leave the doors a lot, like, growing up in the nineties for me. And so it is different. It’s it’s a little bit different. If you need a moment to actually cook dinner and you wanna ensure that they don’t get run over by a car. Right? And so whatever your logic or your reasoning is, you ain’t even gotta explain yourself to nobody because they’ll try you. Pediatricians will try you about certain decisions you make. You really ain’t gotta explain nothing to them. Who are they? I hired you. If I don’t come into this appointment, you don’t get a cut for coming to see my child. So who are you? So and that’s reclaiming everything from the pregnancy to the birth, through education, to where they get care, you’ll get fired in a minute. If it’s Porsche, you’ll you’ll get demoted in a minute. I’ll come snatch my child in a minute and write a report. Just try me if you want to. So that’s reclamation.

[Arielle Rochelin] Incredibly powerful. Final question. What words of… actually, no, two questions. Two questions. My bad. Let me start with this. What is your favorite memory that you have of doing this work? I can’t even just say this work. I mean, this work to be so encompassing Porsche because you wear a lot of different hats. And so I really do mean that it fully. Mother, activist, speaker, birth were all of these things. What’s one of your favorite memories that brings you joy that helps you keep on keeping on?

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] It was probably… there’s so many, but the beginning of me kinda seeing some things was the first birth that I supported. Beautiful situation with a couple I loved seeing, like, dad take his place. I literally coached. I did what a doula should do as coach. And if there’s a partner present letting them do their thing, because that’s their baby. And I haven’t held this baby to this day because I’m not their parent. Okay? That’s just what it is. They don’t know my smell and all that, go to your mama now.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] Yeah. But seeing this through this diagnosis and, oh, we’re gonna do like this and them holding their guns and saying, nope. Nope. Nope. Somebody stepped out the room when it was time, and I had already coached her on how to know and to pay attention to her body. Because we did minimal meds so she was aware. And she turned around and got on all fours in that position that she wanted and made those providers get low to follow her command not theirs. And when somebody stepped out the room, I would… I just kinda whispered in ear “go”. That she went to the position that she needed to, and she could feel when it was time to push. Don’t my ASHA nurses nothing? That has to be hap… that has to happen in controlled environments when I’m high, you know, high as a kite and can’t feel nothing. Now you gotta tell me because I can’t feel. And so she had full autonomy to be able to do that. Beautiful birth, beautiful support, father all up in it. This is what we said we was doing. Delayed. I mean, knew the language was right up in it. Literally, I was just there kinda, like, supervisor. Like, if somebody say something crazy, you know, Porsche… Philly is coming out of Porsche. Okay? And this is a birth in hospital that is now closed, which is terrible. But that is one of my favorite memories, just being like, this is what it should and could look like in a hospital space if people were given given their space, but also if you’re constantly in a place of saying, nope, what are you doing? What’s happening? So it was beautiful to see that unfold, but it was also, like, beautifully painful to be like, why do we gotta say fifty million times this? Or keep reminding you, or keep whatever, or why do you have to keep asking or keep coming in when I already said what I didn’t said what I didn’t said.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] And so, it it revealed to me the beauty of a family working together to assure that their baby comes earth’s side but then it also revealed to me some of the flaws and issues, in the hospital system that aren’t as easily because most people would have just said, Oh, that was just so beautiful, whatever. But the the advocate in me saw a bunch of holes too. Because dad shouldn’t have had to repeat himself fifty million times. He shouldn’t that he he should’ve just been given the what he needed, held his baby off the rip, and y’all should have delayed core clamping, and it shouldn’t have been no question. It shouldn’t have been common practice, which if she was in a home birth scenario that would have been common dental practice, among so many other things, not coming in and out, the peace, you know, the freedom to do different things. And so that is a strong memory for me because it was one of the ones that pushed me to be like, your time as a doula is going to be limited. So I am retired. Don’t call me unless it’s, I mean, real big money. I’m not coming to be your doula. It has to be five figures, at least. Because I’m done, because that’s the moment where I realized I had to do something systemically.

[Arielle Rochelin] Oh, that’s powerful. Listen, and Beyonce has a third one and she calls you.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] I’ll go. Because it’ll be it’ll be six figures, seven figures.

[Arielle Rochelin] It’ll be six figures. I see the survey.

[Porsche M. Holland-Otunba] I’ll miss the night four, but I ain’t doing it no more. Thank you.